| 4 Nov 2021 |
 tomberek | Or that attempts at it backfire? | 01:34:44 |
| tomberek | Oh, there is something interesting in the "Ignores are not a solution for abuse" comment. | 01:39:13 |
| tomberek | Would that be a reasonable way to think about what reaches the level of harassment/abuse? If it can be reasonably ignored? If it can, then it is not - and vice versa? | 01:40:50 |
 Moritz Hedtke | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
Would that be a reasonable way to think about what reaches the level of harassment/abuse? If it can be reasonably ignored? If it can, then it is not - and vice versa? I think the "white european males" of us could probably think like that but that privilege probably doesn't have everybody. | 01:43:29 |
| Moritz Hedtke | I think it boils down to what can be ignored which is extremely subjective | 01:44:04 |
 @jonringer:matrix.org | In reply to @moritz.hedtke:matrix.org
I think it boils down to what can be ignored which is extremely subjective obviously harassment and malicious shouldn't be tolerated. However, I've rarely seen this outside of very rare incidents | 01:45:27 |
| Moritz Hedtke | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
obviously harassment and malicious shouldn't be tolerated. However, I've rarely seen this outside of very rare incidents That's what we all (hopefully) can agree on | 01:45:58 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | And generally they are just an individual acting out. Not some greater plot of privileged individuals to oppress a minority | 01:46:26 |
| tomberek | The subjectivity is somewhat bounded. It is not completely arbitrary. | 01:47:01 |
| Moritz Hedtke | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
And generally they are just an individual acting out. Not some greater plot of privileged individuals to oppress a minority I don't want to speak for others but I think there are people who would disagree (but are sleeping) | 01:47:46 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | I think there's way too much generalization going on and any meaning is being lost by shades of gray | 01:47:49 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | I'm absolutely sure there are people who disagree. And I'm sure I'm part of that "privileged" oppressor group | 01:48:30 |
| Moritz Hedtke | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
The subjectivity is somewhat bounded. It is not completely arbitrary. Sure but not bounded enough that I think it's easy to write down withouth everyone disagreeing | 01:49:22 |
| tomberek | What is reasonable is something that develops over time. | 01:50:00 |
| Moritz Hedtke | Which seems like one of the main problem of all the efforts here. That there always are (lots) of people who won't like the approach taken | 01:50:06 |
| tomberek | Policy, banning, moderation, community discussions, etc all move that line back and forth. | 01:50:50 |
| tomberek | It establishes over time a standard of what is considered reasonable to ignore, and what rises above that and needs to be dealt with in some other way. | 01:52:22 |
| Moritz Hedtke | So no RFC? :-) | 01:54:20 |
| tomberek | The underlying disagreement seems to be that people vehemently don't see that line drawn close to each other, or in what direction it should move, or even how that moving should take place. | 01:54:21 |
| tomberek | In such a situation, the best thing is often to trust in people to make decisions, and try to set things up such that that trust is not abused. | 01:57:02 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | In reply to @moritz.hedtke:matrix.org
So no RFC? :-) I'm going to get the ball rolling on them, then step back from all platforms but github | 01:57:46 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | I'm just, tired of all the drama around people wanting a safe place. But only seeing the same people be responsible for the most inflammatory comments and dialouge. | 01:59:05 |
| Moritz Hedtke | I hope we manage to at least codify the common denominator of guidelines / rules | 01:59:14 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | In reply to @moritz.hedtke:matrix.org
I hope we manage to at least codify the common denominator of guidelines / rules That's RFC #1 | 01:59:25 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | Well, the guidelines/values. Rules and enforcement will be a different RFC | 02:00:29 |
| tomberek | moritz.hedtke: with that goal in mind, and with the goal to find a consensus, would you write RFC98 as is? | 02:03:59 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | And "rules" are more like, not abiding by the values. and magnitude of punishment will be delegated by to a moderation team | 02:04:04 |
| Moritz Hedtke | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
moritz.hedtke: with that goal in mind, and with the goal to find a consensus, would you write RFC98 as is? You mean jonringers plan? | 02:11:16 |
| tomberek | No, 98. | 02:11:33 |
| Moritz Hedtke | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
No, 98. I think 98 is too ambiguous in it's values (didn't read it super throughouly yet). I like the idea of a larger team that takes care of the community though. I could imagine that first codyfing only the values/guidelines and then creating some kind of team that should enforce them like I understand jonringers current proposal could work better | 02:15:15 |
