 | RFC 98 Chat | 48 Members |
| Discussion on RFC 98 [Community Team] https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/98 | 21 Servers |
| RFC 98 Chat | 48 Members |
| Discussion on RFC 98 [Community Team] https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/98 | 21 Servers |
| Sender | Message | Time |
|---|---|---|
| 5 Nov 2021 | ||
 jonringer | Because that's when his nomination was declined for release manager. | 03:26:03 |
 problems | i don't recall when that offer was specifically, but i've certainly reached out to him before january 2021 for other reasons | 03:26:16 |
| jonringer | This from ~9 months ago, so the details are a little fuzzy. But a lot of people (in IRC) were just trying to get him to do other things. Or were just coming off as dismissive. I don't know what went on in private. But after I had a chat, his reviews did seem more cordial, and there seemed to be a large contrast before jan 24 and post jan 24 in his mannerism. | 03:42:13 |
| jonringer | * This from ~9 months ago, so the details are a little fuzzy. But a lot of people (in IRC) were just trying to get him to do other things. Or were just coming off as dismissive. I don't know what went on in private. But after I had a chat, his reviews did seem more cordial, and there seemed to be a large contrast before jan 24 and post jan 24 in his mannerisms. | 03:42:54 |
| jonringer | It's possible that he wasn't as receptive to others, but I just remember the difference was quite significant. | 03:43:38 |
| jonringer | And the chat logs that world brought up to demonstrate that he wasn't fit for RM, the rooms were definitely somewhere between dismissive to hostile toward. Hard to influence someone when they are on their back foot. | 03:47:06 |
| jonringer | * And the chat logs that world brought up to demonstrate that he wasn't fit for RM, the rooms were definitely somewhere between dismissive to hostile toward him. Hard to influence someone when they are on their back foot. | 03:47:22 |
| problems | i agree with that | 03:49:12 |
| jonringer | Not saying that he is innocent. He has been dismissive at times. But I think it's an instance where some type of arbitration team could have done more "mentoring" than push back, and it would have been a much better resolution. | 03:50:18 |
| jonringer | * Not saying that he is innocent. He has been dismissive at times. He has been short with many people (myself included). But I think it's an instance where some type of arbitration team could have done more "mentoring" than push back, and it would have been a much better resolution. | 03:50:55 |
| problems | yes, that is certainly one of the inspirations for the community team | 03:51:42 |
| problems | (not just sandro specifically, but that is one of the cases it helps) | 03:52:21 |
 Irenes | I want to observe that with sandro's case, it only works if he's bought in to the arbitration. If it's someone he already distrusts reaching out as a peer, without authority, and he's already afraid of where such communication will lead, ... I won't say there's no way to make it work, but it's a lot harder. | 04:23:02 |
| Irenes | I don't see mediation as an exceptional thing, I think there are lots of situations where the need for it can arise | 04:23:18 |
| Irenes | and having a team with a track record of doing it successfully should eventually make it a little easier | 04:23:33 |
| Irenes | as far as getting that buy-in | 04:23:45 |
| jonringer | Sure, no one is going to receive "a stranger" well. I just wish I was made aware of it before having to tell him that although he was the only one to nominate or be nominated, that he was denied the role of release manager. And that these issues (that I was not aware of outside of python package reviews) were going on for months. I'm all in favor of having some type of moderation framework with actual people that can be approached, and that's the parts that I really like about 98. I just don't like the scope of moderation to also encompass behavior need to align to a "social norm" narrative. | 04:34:25 |
| Irenes | yes, I also wish that had happened. | 04:37:41 |
| jonringer | * Sure, no one is going to receive "a stranger" well. I just wish I was made aware of it before having to tell him that although he was the only one to nominate or be nominated, that he was denied the role of release manager. And that these issues (that I was not aware of outside of python package reviews) were going on for months. I'm all in favor of having some type of moderation framework with actual people that can be approached, and that's the parts that I really like about 98. I just don't like the scope of moderation to also encompass behavior needing to align to a "social norm" narrative. | 04:38:20 |
| Irenes | the norms we're talking about are just the stuff about treating each other with respect and all that. | 04:39:12 |
| Irenes | I mean, it's okay to disagree that we should do that but it's not anything sinister. | 04:39:30 |
| Irenes | setting it as a social norm works (or at least that's our belief), in a way that a focus on punishment does not | 04:39:57 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.orgI am having trouble reconciling this. assuming that you agree that "a healthy community is necessary for the success of Nix", this seems to imply that you believe that you personally could not ever do anything to make the Nix community less healthy; because if you could, then other people should be able to say something about how you act or what you say, to safeguard the health of the community - and calling out hypothetical problematic behaviour would be making Nix a priority. what am I missing here? | 08:52:28 |
| jonringer |
I believe we have different opinions about what health means. I mean RFC#114, I think you mean RFC#98.
I want to see it succeed. But it is within my fallibility to cause damage unintentionally. Also, please avoid ad-hominem comments, it largely serves to make the other defensive.
If I'm out of line, then I would like to know. I'm human. I'm imperfect. I have biases, both conscious and unconscious.
No. I've been advocating for months that someone (or people) with problem resolution skills should be able to effectively arbitrate situations which could escalate. | 15:02:43 |
| jonringer | Me "calling out" behavior, is usually be something already did escalate. And I took issue with the resolution. | 15:06:00 |
| jonringer | * Me "calling out" behavior, is usually because something already did escalate. And I took issue with the resolution. | 15:08:12 |
 Domen Kožar | joepie91 🏳️🌈: I'm quite worried about the culture of telling people not to express their negative feelings on the RFC | 16:00:41 |
| Domen Kožar | if someone says they are going to quit our community, the last thing I want to tell them is to say "this is not the place to do it" without providing an alternative | 16:04:30 |
| Domen Kožar | isn't the whole point to nurture and signal to people they can feel safe and accepted? | 16:04:56 |
| Domen Kožar | it's all seems backwards | 16:05:03 |