| 4 Nov 2021 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Jonas Chevalier: as I've already stated before, I do not believe that anyone is 'unfixable' or 'fundamentally bad'. but to put it in explicit terms, as long as one adheres to and expresses an oppressive ideology, they are a threat to a (potential) subset of the community | 17:57:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | those people have the choice to not follow that oppressive ideology, and be welcomed back into the community | 17:57:38 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | oh, to be clear: with "expresses an oppressive ideology" I do not mean "talking about politics" | 17:59:32 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it is generally far, far more subtle than that. | 17:59:43 |
 Jonas Chevalier | again, this is a very specific view on diversity | 17:59:49 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | correct. | 17:59:56 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I think pretty much all of the views I've expressed here have been very specific :) | 18:00:12 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | as I've mentioned, I think all the cards should be put on the table | 18:00:40 |
| Jonas Chevalier | again, this is very reminiscent of the American culture war | 18:03:14 |
| Jonas Chevalier | it's painting a picture where there are some types of marginalized groups, that need special protections, across very specific lines | 18:04:10 |
| Jonas Chevalier | nobody is talking about mentally disabled people for example | 18:04:31 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | that's because there are. and I reject the framing of a 'culture war', which implies this is some sort of passing fad. in reality, it's just a long history of systemic social issues coming to a head and finally getting addressed | 18:05:00 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
nobody is talking about mentally disabled people for example I did earlier in this discussion, actually | 18:05:21 |
 Jan Tojnar | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
nobody is talking about mentally disabled people for example people are talking about that, stigmatization of mental illness is an issue | 18:05:42 |
| Jonas Chevalier | what I mean is that there is a specific order that is being painted | 18:07:10 |
| Jonas Chevalier | and sorry to those who have been though this 1000 times :p | 18:07:36 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
what I mean is that there is a specific order that is being painted yes, there is. and contrary to what people often claim, that is not actually a bad thing - it's explicitly calling things out instead of leaving them implicit. | 18:08:11 |
| Jonas Chevalier | ^ this whole notion is basically what people call "woke" | 18:08:18 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | there is a specific order in society. that is true whether or not you call it out. | 18:08:34 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | we live in a hierarchical society. | 18:08:48 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I just choose to be explicit about calling out that order and how to counteract it, as best as possible with the means available. | 18:09:06 |
| Jonas Chevalier | see, this is really the problematic part | 18:09:15 |
| Jonas Chevalier | by opening this box, now you're thinking of rewriting society as a whole to fix the injustices of the world | 18:09:42 |
| Jonas Chevalier | now you're going to say that it falls on the NixOS project to participate in that grand effort | 18:10:06 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | not exactly. | 18:10:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I am an activist, so yes, I am thinking a lot about 'rewriting society', if that's the terminology you want to use. but in this specific discussion, that is not my goal | 18:10:40 |
| Jonas Chevalier | it's reminiscent of communism, except that people are categorized by minorities instead of classes | 18:10:58 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | in the case of NixOS specifically, it's not about changing society through NixOS; it's about structuring NixOS to shield itself from the fallout of society | 18:11:05 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | which is to say, accepting that there are injustices and power imbalances in society, and those will filter through in interactions with people who live in that society, and so to maintain a healthy community which does not suffer from those exact same injustices, you need to actively watch for and counteract those things | 18:12:04 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it's more putting a piece of cardboard under a wobbly table, than trying to reform the table manufacturing industry | 18:12:36 |
