| 7 Nov 2021 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I do want to note that the feedback from jonringer didn't so much bring up a previously unconsidered concern (as everybody seems to philosophically already agree that there should be room for adjustment), but rather highlighted that the RFC currently does not communicate well enough that this factor is taken into consideration | 11:17:37 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | this is also why I commented in the thread that the issues seem to be mostly around communication and not so much about philosophical disagreements | 11:18:09 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | that doesn't mean those issues aren't important, but it does mean that work needs to be done to figure out exactly where and why the miscommunication is happening | 11:18:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | (rather than focusing entirely on "these are oppressive norms" for example) | 11:19:10 |
 tomberek | I agree that miscommunication is happening, I'm still at a loss to see how it will not continue. | 11:20:31 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | that seems like a strange stance to take. why do you feel it will continue? | 11:21:38 |
 @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | I believe there were also concerns on how this affects the balance of power and how it should, I have no idea how this related to how nixos works in general are there elections, how is eligible to vote etc. | 11:21:55 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | * I believe there were also concerns on how this affects the balance of power and how it should, I have no idea how this related to how nixos works in general are there elections, who is eligible to vote etc. | 11:22:32 |
| tomberek | The past three months, the existing history of the RFC gives me good reason to think that it will. That that RFC and the ensuing discussion has led to several bans, and more discussions about additional ones. That feedback seems to take three months to be heard and the price of the disruption and pain caused seems to be ignored. If the only constructive feedback accepted is that people need to be given time to adjust..... well, that doesn't change the situation enough to fix the problem of miscommunication. | 11:25:36 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | at the time the RFC was created, it was already known that it would take a long time to sort this all out, because this topic always does | 11:26:28 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it was deliberately not rushed and considered carefully for that reason | 11:26:41 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | and especially in the past several days, there have been some significant steps towards a better shared understanding among community members | 11:27:05 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | By process, I think maybe it is also better to have norms separately handled from the methods of enforcing the norms, but that might or might not be nitpicking, I am not sure if this is why rfc-114 was done or not | 11:27:08 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | (I guess it was also about the language) | 11:27:26 |
 Ellie | joepie91 🏳️🌈: weren't you supposed to be taking a holiday from the internet today? | 11:27:48 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Emil Karlson: while I don't have the time today to go into detail about this, I am opposed to treating norms and process separately for the reasons that a) the two are quite closely intertwined and can't really be considered separately, and b) you will very likely end up with a toothless CoC as the process gets stuck in bikeshed land, and then you get what the Scala community is experiencing now | 11:28:19 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Ellie: yeup | 11:28:37 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I will be disappearing in a couple of minutes :) | 11:28:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | tomberek: anyway, rest assured that everyone involved in the process for RFC 98 is painfully aware of the conflict that it is causing, and I think all of us would have preferred for that not to happen. but the unfortunate reality is that this sort of thing will have to come to a head sooner or later, and it's better to do so at a time when the community isn't already in crisis and there is still room to approach the topic carefully and at a reasonable pace | 11:30:42 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | if anything, deferring this until the inevitable point of conflict would likely mean that at that time an RFC would be passed quickly with a very broad CoC and a fixed unaccountable moderation team to enforce it just to deal with the crisis - I don't think that would be a better outcome, especially if you are concerned about overly broad social norms or enforcement | 11:31:47 |
| tomberek | How much disruption or miscommunication (conflict, as you said) would convince you to consider an alternative approach? Where's the limit? | 11:32:05 |
| Ellie | And if we are to ignore this now and wait for it to come to a head, how many people will we lose along the way | 11:32:08 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | joepie91 🏳️🌈 have a nice weekend and thanks for everyone for having the most of patience they can on this topic. | 11:32:17 |
| Ellie | i.e. pushed out because the environment was not welcoming or safe enough | 11:32:30 |
| Ellie | (I think I phrased that poorly, I hope I got the point across) | 11:32:40 |
| tomberek | (anyone can answer, not quite directed to a single person) | 11:32:42 |
| Ellie | Personally, I wouldn't know where to begin quantifying that ahead of time, tomberek. If I, personally, am to be totally honest: if there was that massive wholesale level of rejection for these ideas, I would have to very very carefully consider my further involvement in the project, rather than trying to whittle things down to an "acceptable" skeleton | 11:34:42 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | tomberek: I don't think that's the right way to look at it, honestly, as a hard quantifiable limit of disruption. the RFC isn't creating conflict, it is bringing existing conflict to the surface, and so in a very literal sense whatever conflict it digs up very likely needed to be dealt with anyway. I consider it far more important that all of those involved in the discussion, from any perspective, do their best to keep the conflict to that which is necessary to sort out, working towards a mutual understanding rather than a 'tribal war', and not constructing additional conflict to disrupt the process | 11:34:52 |
| tomberek | So no amount of concerns or feedback that is considered legitimate and real would be enough to go down the route of 114 instead? | 11:35:51 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | 'conflict' is not really an objectively measurable unit, nor is 'acceptable conflict', and so we will have to rely on the good faith of all participants to do their part in reducing it as much as possible without burying it | 11:35:57 |
