| 5 Nov 2021 |
 jonringer | This from ~9 months ago, so the details are a little fuzzy. But a lot of people (in IRC) were just trying to get him to do other things. Or were just coming off as dismissive. I don't know what went on in private. But after I had a chat, his reviews did seem more cordial, and there seemed to be a large contrast before jan 24 and post jan 24 in his mannerism.
| 03:42:13 |
| jonringer | * This from ~9 months ago, so the details are a little fuzzy. But a lot of people (in IRC) were just trying to get him to do other things. Or were just coming off as dismissive. I don't know what went on in private. But after I had a chat, his reviews did seem more cordial, and there seemed to be a large contrast before jan 24 and post jan 24 in his mannerisms. | 03:42:54 |
| jonringer | It's possible that he wasn't as receptive to others, but I just remember the difference was quite significant. | 03:43:38 |
| jonringer | And the chat logs that world brought up to demonstrate that he wasn't fit for RM, the rooms were definitely somewhere between dismissive to hostile toward. Hard to influence someone when they are on their back foot. | 03:47:06 |
| jonringer | * And the chat logs that world brought up to demonstrate that he wasn't fit for RM, the rooms were definitely somewhere between dismissive to hostile toward him. Hard to influence someone when they are on their back foot. | 03:47:22 |
 problems | i agree with that | 03:49:12 |
| jonringer | Not saying that he is innocent. He has been dismissive at times. But I think it's an instance where some type of arbitration team could have done more "mentoring" than push back, and it would have been a much better resolution. | 03:50:18 |
| jonringer | * Not saying that he is innocent. He has been dismissive at times. He has been short with many people (myself included). But I think it's an instance where some type of arbitration team could have done more "mentoring" than push back, and it would have been a much better resolution. | 03:50:55 |
| problems | yes, that is certainly one of the inspirations for the community team | 03:51:42 |
| problems | (not just sandro specifically, but that is one of the cases it helps) | 03:52:21 |
 Irenes | I want to observe that with sandro's case, it only works if he's bought in to the arbitration. If it's someone he already distrusts reaching out as a peer, without authority, and he's already afraid of where such communication will lead, ... I won't say there's no way to make it work, but it's a lot harder. | 04:23:02 |
| Irenes | I don't see mediation as an exceptional thing, I think there are lots of situations where the need for it can arise | 04:23:18 |
| Irenes | and having a team with a track record of doing it successfully should eventually make it a little easier | 04:23:33 |
| Irenes | as far as getting that buy-in | 04:23:45 |
| jonringer | Sure, no one is going to receive "a stranger" well. I just wish I was made aware of it before having to tell him that although he was the only one to nominate or be nominated, that he was denied the role of release manager.
And that these issues (that I was not aware of outside of python package reviews) were going on for months.
I'm all in favor of having some type of moderation framework with actual people that can be approached, and that's the parts that I really like about 98. I just don't like the scope of moderation to also encompass behavior need to align to a "social norm" narrative. | 04:34:25 |
| Irenes | yes, I also wish that had happened. | 04:37:41 |
| jonringer | * Sure, no one is going to receive "a stranger" well. I just wish I was made aware of it before having to tell him that although he was the only one to nominate or be nominated, that he was denied the role of release manager.
And that these issues (that I was not aware of outside of python package reviews) were going on for months.
I'm all in favor of having some type of moderation framework with actual people that can be approached, and that's the parts that I really like about 98. I just don't like the scope of moderation to also encompass behavior needing to align to a "social norm" narrative. | 04:38:20 |
| Irenes | the norms we're talking about are just the stuff about treating each other with respect and all that. | 04:39:12 |
| Irenes | I mean, it's okay to disagree that we should do that but it's not anything sinister. | 04:39:30 |
| Irenes | setting it as a social norm works (or at least that's our belief), in a way that a focus on punishment does not | 04:39:57 |
