| 4 Nov 2021 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | this is not the last RFC that we will be writing :) | 15:35:25 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | jonringer: so my views on this are... complicated. on the one hand, in a vacuum I would agree that this should not be necessary to mention and we should be able to focus on intent and empathy/inclusion and constructive outcomes alone. in practice, however, there are certain specific problematic ideologies whose adherents have gotten very good at packaging their ideology in faux rationalism, and explicitly calling out those ideologies as unwanted will provide a shortcut that makes moderation significantly less exhausting | 15:36:36 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | we're having similar issues when we're talking about large features to change to nixpkgs. once we start interpolating the future, it creates too much uncertainty and unnecessary dissent | 15:37:08 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | for very similar reasons, I have instituted a blanket ban on alt-right ideology in PTIO - it's simply unworkable to defend against otherwise | 15:37:11 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | at least, if I want to have any energy left for things such as work and cooking :p | 15:37:31 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | joepie91 🏳️🌈: we trust that you will tell us when that will happen | 15:37:56 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | as that specific ideology exploits the well-known adage of "it takes an order of magnitude more effort to refute bullshit than to produce it" | 15:38:21 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | we have to trust our community as well | 15:38:26 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
joepie91 🏳️🌈: we trust that you will tell us when that will happen I'm not entirely certain what "that" refers to here? | 15:38:53 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | if you see alt-right ideology cropping up | 15:39:16 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | ah, right. I tend to call it out when I see it anyway :p | 15:39:38 |
 Domen Kožar | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
for very similar reasons, I have instituted a blanket ban on alt-right ideology in PTIO - it's simply unworkable to defend against otherwise I wonder though, isn't that bigotry? | 15:40:00 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I don't think so | 15:40:35 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Jonas Chevalier: if you are interested in learning how to spot it and the abusive discussion patterns, I can strongly recommend the "Alt-Right Playbook" - I don't generally recommend videos, but these are very information-dense and incredibly informative and well-explained | 15:40:57 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (the tactics are not unique to the alt-right, but they are most actively exploited by them currently) | 15:41:15 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | right now, since we're not under direct threat, I think it's better to avoid that language and the sense of impending doom and suspicion to each-other that comes with it | 15:42:02 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @domenkozar:matrix.org
I wonder though, isn't that bigotry? it's not. "bigotry" and "exclusion" are two different things - the main determining factor is something along the lines of "is this one's fundamental identity, or is it a deliberate choice?" | 15:42:03 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | it's a bit more nuanced in reality (is 'being a murderer' always a choice? for example), but as a rule of thumb it works well enough to understand the distinction | 15:42:35 |
| Domen Kožar | So it's allowed to be prejudiced based ona sum of identify but not on a sum of deliberate choices? | 15:43:46 |
 GallantChef | In my experience, it's the "if you don't subscribe to the belief of X then you're a bigot/racist/fascist/etc." that drives people to extremism, rather than rescues them from it | 15:43:55 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I think we all want to get back to a positive environment where we enjoy hacking on Nix. Being able to escape from the reality of the world is an important feature that I get from hacking on the project. | 15:43:57 |
| GallantChef | Enshrining something like that in writing would actually encourage extremism rather than combat it | 15:44:09 |
| Domen Kožar | Our choices are limited by our own beliefs 🤔 | 15:44:38 |
| GallantChef | Further more, prescribing correct belief systems and incorrect ones isn't conducive towards forming a moderation team | 15:44:49 |
| GallantChef | This is a fundamentally non-partisan issue | 15:44:56 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Domen Kožar: in the case of alt-right ideology specifically, it is certainly a choice to express it outwardly - people generally have the option to not adhere to it, or at the very least treat it as "yes this is what I grew up in but I'm working on it", and so I consider it reasonable to hold people accountable for it. in the context of a decidedly harmful ideology, which means there's a threat to the community, the decision then becomes "this is not welcome here" | 15:45:11 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | one "metric" I often use is "does this person's presence in the community constitute a net positive or a net negative effect on that community?" | 15:45:52 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | folks who unabashedly adhere to alt-right ideology fall far on the "net negative" side of that spectrum almost without exception | 15:46:23 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (almost always also in ways that are not directly connectable to "alt-right ideology", like a general unwillingness to consider other people's point of view in technical discussions for example) | 15:47:13 |
| GallantChef | I'm asking in good faith, just as you demonize the alt-right, can we demonize AuthLeft? | 15:47:22 |
