| 1 Dec 2022 |
 John Ericson | The polyfil thing might convince me | 21:18:54 |
| John Ericson | But I am too busy today to think much about it :( | 21:19:07 |
 infinisil | Sounds good, I'll link to this convo from the PR for future reference | 21:21:08 |
|  raitobezarius joined the room. | 21:30:01 |
|  DwarfMaster joined the room. | 23:46:46 |
| 2 Dec 2022 |
|  @srid:matrix.org changed their profile picture. | 02:19:44 |
| 4 Dec 2022 |
 @ronnypfannschmidt:matrix.org | Something where I'm under the impression that something is missing is the state version concept
For some reason it's bound to the release cadence of nixos instead of matching the granularity of services, which may have migrations (i recently hit this when a failed system update broke my nextcloud by running migrations at update time in turn destroying any chance to run nextcloud after the update) | 17:51:55 |
 Rick (Mindavi) | It makes sense migrations are related to upgrades, no? | 19:21:11 |
| Rick (Mindavi) | The other channel is called unstable for a reason :) | 19:21:25 |
| Rick (Mindavi) | No but I agree that it'd be nice if services handled migrations more gracefully sometimes | 19:23:17 |
| @ronnypfannschmidt:matrix.org | Mindavi: it's kinda necessary to have local state versions and tools around them to contril versions to archive graceful migration
Not just app schema updates, also database versions & more | 19:50:04 |
 toonn | That's a good point. Migrations being tied to stable releases in the sense of "No migrations until the next release," makes sense. But having to migrate everything all at once if you want to keep up could be harsh. | 19:51:48 |
| @ronnypfannschmidt:matrix.org | Also on occasion Patch releases ship database migrations that break the world
Happened to my nextcloud unstable, it was most surprising | 19:58:44 |
| raitobezarius | In reply to @ronnypfannschmidt:matrix.org
Also on occasion Patch releases ship database migrations that break the world
Happened to my nextcloud unstable, it was most surprising Do you know if there's an upstream issue on that? | 23:01:18 |
| raitobezarius | Supposedly, they do a shit ton of testing to avoid pushing broken database migrations to everyone | 23:01:30 |
| raitobezarius | If we cannot do this assumption, this is really problematic because, I am not absolutely certain that state versioning patch-level version is a good idea, esp. wrt to security fixes | 23:01:55 |
| Rick (Mindavi) | We'll always depend on upstream to do it right | 23:02:40 |
| raitobezarius | We could be very extreme and perform additional testing like an enterprise / system integrator distribution would do it, but we do not have the means IMHO | 23:03:11 |
| raitobezarius | (otherwise we would need to invent some nice trick to do it "nicely") | 23:03:22 |
| Rick (Mindavi) | Maintainers could also setup their own testing with multiple versions of nixpkgs etc | 23:06:03 |
| Rick (Mindavi) | But yeah, it is a lot of work to do it properly | 23:06:17 |
| raitobezarius | even if we do so, we cannot get the exact same environment as everyone | 23:06:22 |
| raitobezarius | I mean, I also run on nixpkgs unstable for my NC with nixos-upgrade (thug life), and I did not have any breakage with the patch level :'( | 23:06:44 |
| raitobezarius | (and I can see a log on 4th Dec for a NC unattended upgrade) | 23:07:32 |
| @ronnypfannschmidt:matrix.org | Well, i would not have noticed any issues if something unrelated to nextcloud didn't cause a rollback from deploy-rs | 23:16:15 |
| raitobezarius | what do you mean? | 23:16:35 |
| raitobezarius | (if it caused a rollback, I would be very afraid that the older software would do stupid things while the DB is already migrated) | 23:16:57 |
| raitobezarius | (because migrations are not necessarily two ways in all software and that's an unfortunate upstream thing) | 23:17:13 |
| @ronnypfannschmidt:matrix.org | Which is precisely why I propose more granular state versions, without the rollback I would never have noted | 23:18:19 |
| raitobezarius | I don't understand how granular state version would solve the problem | 23:18:43 |
