| 16 Jan 2025 |
 Dandellion | * | 17:21:00 |
| Dandellion | Generally clients are "smart" and make upgraded rooms shadow the older room. You're still joined to the old room - it just doesnt show up in your room list | 17:22:25 |
 emily | hmm, okay. | 17:25:18 |
| emily | then I wonder why they don't just integrate the history into the scrollback | 17:25:18 |
 @emma:rory.gay | In reply to @dandellion:dodsorf.as
It can search across room upgrade boundaries "it" depends on client implementation | 17:25:23 |
| @emma:rory.gay | Element isnt the standard for matrix | 17:25:45 |
| emily | it kinda very clearly is | 17:28:40 |
| emily | given that it seems like the spec is driven by what Element wants and other clients only ever come up as lip service to the idea of being a diverse ecosystem and are otherwise totally neglected | 17:29:34 |
| emily | and the fact that Element is the only client that doesn't run into interop issues and "we don't use that feature here (but we can't turn it off)" type stuff as a result | 17:30:09 |
| emily | I don't think that's good, but I do think it's the reality | 17:30:20 |
| @emma:rory.gay | In reply to @emilazy:matrix.org
given that it seems like the spec is driven by what Element wants and other clients only ever come up as lip service to the idea of being a diverse ecosystem and are otherwise totally neglected Its a topic that came up in the ecosystem governing board meeting this week, actually | 17:35:39 |
| emily | I am sceptical that that is a board with the power to stop Element implementing whatever they want and making it into a de facto standard. | 17:36:20 |
 Cat | The spec for room upgrades makes this behavior pretty standard. | 17:36:21 |
| Dandellion | In reply to @emilazy:matrix.org
given that it seems like the spec is driven by what Element wants and other clients only ever come up as lip service to the idea of being a diverse ecosystem and are otherwise totally neglected Im (still) giving them the benefit of the doubt here. This seems less true recently, user facing features just aren't being specced. While the spec team is actually doing more fundamental work.
Focusing on core matrix issues is a valid strategy that isnt neccecarily element specific
| 17:36:39 |
| @emma:rory.gay | In reply to @emilazy:matrix.org
I am sceptical that that is a board with the power to stop Element implementing whatever they want and making it into a de facto standard. I guess the matrix.ort foundation cant stop element doing element things | 17:36:50 |
| emily | I did a lot of giving the ecosystem the benefit of the doubt from 2018 onwards | 17:37:22 |
| emily | unfortunately the benefit has expired :P | 17:37:27 |
| Dandellion | In reply to @emilazy:matrix.org
then I wonder why they don't just integrate the history into the scrollback This was part of the original design but never happened tm iirc | 17:37:53 |
| Dandellion | In reply to @emilazy:matrix.org
unfortunately the benefit has expired :P Yeah, it's totally understandable. This discontent has brewed for a loong time | 17:38:43 |
| emily | I mean, when I started using Matrix my attitude was "this could be the best thing ever, there's rough edges but as long as they focus on the fundamentals and get those polished up I'll go all-in" | 17:39:28 |
| emily | 7 years later… a couple of those rough edges have been polished? and the rest are either just as bad or got worse as a bunch of shaky feature development has been piled on top of crumbling foundations | 17:40:00 |
| emily | which would be ok if they were candid about it but arathorn's public statements have maintained the exact same tone throughout the years and feel increasingly like dispatches from an alien world to me. | 17:41:08 |
| @emma:rory.gay | All im gonna say is, we have a good amount of non-enterprise ecosystem members at the governing level now, its a recent development and needs some time, but we'll get there eventually | 17:41:47 |
 K900 | I am mildly optimistic about less NV involvement in Matrix governance | 17:42:38 |
| emily | as with NixOS governance, I won't write it off ahead of time but I'll believe the progress when I see it :) | 17:43:00 |
| emily | I don't see any way the ecosystem is not going to be heavily dominated by/reliant on the clients and servers developed by Element | 17:43:09 |
| emily | and I don't see any reason to believe that Element's priorities will start to align more with mine | 17:43:18 |
| emily | so even if there is a nicer spec with a development direction I approve of more, I am not sure it will change the pragmatics from my point of view | 17:43:39 |
| emily | it doesn't really matter if there's good software out there if you're still constrained by the pain of interoperating with Element/Synapse/matrix.org | 17:44:18 |
| @emma:rory.gay | new director has been a big thing so far | 17:53:51 |
