| 7 Jan 2026 |
 emily | again we are not redistributing the unmodified SDK | 14:23:34 |
| emily | it is a subset of interface definitions without any proprietary tools | 14:23:54 |
 eveeifyeve | Doesn't matter if it's unmodified tho. | 14:24:00 |
| emily | of course it does | 14:24:13 |
| emily | non-free things can contain things that are freely-licensed, uncopyrightable, or clearly eligible for fair use | 14:24:35 |
| eveeifyeve | * Doesn't matter if it's unmodified tho. I am not a lawyer but it clearly says under 2.6:
Except as otherwise set forth in this Agreement, You agree not to rent, lease, lend, upload to or host on any website or server, sell, redistribute, or sublicense the Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or any Services, in whole or in part, or to enable others to do so. You may not use the Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or any Services provided hereunder for any purpose not expressly permitted by this Agreement, including any applicable Attachments and Schedules. You agree not to install, use or run the Apple SDKs on any non-Apple-branded computer, and not to install, use or run iOS, iPadOS, macOS, tvOS, visionOS, watchOS, and Provisioning Profiles on or in connection with devices other than Apple-branded products, or to enable others to do so. You may not and You agree not to, or to enable others to, copy (except as expressly permitted under this Agreement), decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, decrypt, or create derivative works of the Apple Software, Apple Certificates or any Services provided by the Apple Software or otherwise provided hereunder, or any part thereof (except as and only to the extent any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law or to the extent as may be permitted by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components or sample code included with the Apple Software). You agree not to exploit any Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or Services provided hereunder in any unauthorized way whatsoever, including but not limited to, by trespass or burdening network capacity, or by harvesting or misusing data provided by such Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or Services. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the Apple Software or Services. If You breach any of the foregoing restrictions, You may be subject to prosecution and damages. All licenses not expressly granted in this Agreement are reserved and no other licenses, immunity or rights, express or implied are granted by Apple, by implication, estoppel, or otherwise. This Agreement does not grant You any rights to use any trademarks, logos or service marks belonging to Apple, including but not limited to the iPhone or iPod word marks. If You make reference to any Apple products or technology or use Apple’s trademarks, You agree to comply with the published guidelines at https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html, as they may be modified by Apple from time to time.
| 14:24:51 |
| emily | excerpting them yields something redistributable and unencumbered | 14:24:51 |
 Randy Eckenrode | e.g., Bash in your macOS reinstall. | 14:25:02 |
| emily | I've read the EULA | 14:25:06 |
| eveeifyeve | * Doesn't matter if it's unmodified tho. I am not a lawyer but it clearly says under 2.6:
Except as otherwise set forth in this Agreement, You agree not to rent, lease, lend, upload to or host on any website or server, sell, redistribute, or sublicense the Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or any Services, in whole or in part, or to enable others to do so. You may not use the Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or any Services provided hereunder for any purpose not expressly permitted by this Agreement, including any applicable Attachments and Schedules. You agree not to install, use or run the Apple SDKs on any non-Apple-branded computer, and not to install, use or run iOS, iPadOS, macOS, tvOS, visionOS, watchOS, and Provisioning Profiles on or in connection with devices other than Apple-branded products, or to enable others to do so. You may not and You agree not to, or to enable others to, copy (except as expressly permitted under this Agreement), decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, decrypt, or create derivative works of the Apple Software, Apple Certificates or any Services provided by the Apple Software or otherwise provided hereunder, or any part thereof (except as and only to the extent any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law or to the extent as may be permitted by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components or sample code included with the Apple Software). You agree not to exploit any Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or Services provided hereunder in any unauthorized way whatsoever, including but not limited to, by trespass or burdening network capacity, or by harvesting or misusing data provided by such Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or Services. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the Apple Software or Services. If You breach any of the foregoing restrictions, You may be subject to prosecution and damages. All licenses not expressly granted in this Agreement are reserved and no other licenses, immunity or rights, express or implied are granted by Apple, by implication, estoppel, or otherwise. This Agreement does not grant You any rights to use any trademarks, logos or service marks belonging to Apple, including but not limited to the iPhone or iPod word marks. If You make reference to any Apple products or technology or use Apple’s trademarks, You agree to comply with the published guidelines at https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html, as they may be modified by Apple from time to time.
| 14:25:07 |
| Randy Eckenrode | * | 14:25:09 |
| emily | I'm open to argument that there are concerning things in our apple-sdk package from a copyright POV, but you're not really engaging with the argument for why it's not necessarily so | 14:26:04 |
| eveeifyeve | I do get your augment, however me and Randy Eckenrode are a bit skeptical from a copyright POV could get us into trouble from apple. I am not a lawyer so again don't take this advice seriously. | 14:28:40 |
| emily | ok, I will not take it seriously :)
if you want a non-free licence marker on the SDK package I would recommend working on a way for Hydra builders to build packages without pushing them to the central cache - then it may be viable to do so. it would certainly reduce some headaches in stripping things out of the SDK
| 14:31:35 |
| emily | ultimately for a given struct or function there is only one true way to write its prototype with minor stylistic variation | 14:32:02 |
| emily | those definitions are required for interoperability | 14:32:41 |
| eveeifyeve | However this is just in the EU + US this is not international law correct? This could mean they could file a international lawsuit, however I am not a lawyer but I might be sure that is an option. | 14:33:18 |
| emily | there's little room for creativity within the bounds of a fixed system and a strong fair use justification for interoperating with a given fixed system | 14:33:23 |
| emily | the NixOS Foundation is in the EU | 14:33:39 |
| emily | we use cloud providers located in the US | 14:33:53 |
| emily | other jurisdictions don't really matter for us | 14:34:01 |
| emily | (we redistribute stuff that is encumbered by software patents in the US so in practice we just follow EU rules) | 14:35:02 |
| Randy Eckenrode | I have a different take on Google vs. Oracle. The court only ruled that Google’s use of the Java APIs was fair use regardless of whether APIs could be copyrighted. It didn’t address that issue. I’d prefer they not be, but the lower court did find they were, and I don’t trust the courts to make the right decision should that question come up again. | 14:55:36 |
| Randy Eckenrode | * | 14:55:53 |
| emily | OTOH I believe the EU is much clearer about APIs being uncopyrightable | 15:18:00 |
| emily | and we'd have to stop distributing FFmpeg if going by US rules | 15:18:23 |
| emily | (I agree Oracle v. Google didn't rule APIs either copyrightable or uncopyrightable - though it did adopt a very expansive definition for fair use of them that Nixpkgs would easily meet IMO) | 15:19:16 |
| emily | https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32009L0024 articles 1(2), 5(3) and 6 are relevant here | 15:27:40 |
| emily | https://kempitlaw.com/insights/apis-software-copyright-in-2021-a-view-from-each-side-of-the-pond/ has some commentary | 15:28:54 |
| emily | 6 legitimizes @reckenrode:matrix.org's disassembling constants too, too bad about his jurisdiction 😆 | 15:30:47 |
